MobilityLeaks: The Great Windows Phone 8 Debate
It’s Friday and it looks like all the writers have checked out for the day. However, a healthy discussion on Windows Phone 8 has been happening behind the scenes so I thought we would go ahead and fire up another edition of MobilityLeaks!
David K: Did we know that WP8 is launching in October? That’s what Elop said. Guess what – October 26 is going to be Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8…according to me 😉
Rama Uppugunduri: Can’t wait for that day
Albert Bunn: Meh. Seriously, why can’t we just let it die? I know I sound critical to some of ya’all, but there’s just been no results from it. When Microsoft screwed all the users of real Windows Mobile over by deciding to quit cold turkey, that was a slap in the face that just doesn’t go away for customers. At least Google stepped in with an acceptable “sequel” to Windows Mobile 6 for customers, and at very least they did something right based on the current market share.
In the end, sales have shown that iPhone clones (even ones that run Windows Mobile 6) don’t sell no matter who makes them.
RIP Microsoft Mobile.
Evan Powell: The problem with using market share as your sales compass is that you have to be completely ignorant of the past. The smartphone market didn’t start with the iPhone and it won’t end with it (clearly not now when it’s not WW #1).
Stuff changes. And then, my signature comes into play…
Form Rises To Meet Function.
David K: WM should have died. But I’m not sure why Google is off the hook here. Most of their phones don’t get updated. F$%#, even Apple doesn’t update all of their older phones – they just have the sense to call it iOS6 even though on older devices it’s crippled.
After F$#%ing around with WM for all that time I’m glad to be done with it and happy to move on to a device that works out of the box and never needs a reboot. WP is fast as shit and solid. The OS is way beyond Android in terms of stability and battery life and that’s something Android always promises to fix and always fails at.
Rama Uppugunduri: Microsoft should have called Windows Phone 7.8 as just Windows Phone 8 and tell some of the functionality wont work on older devices. After all that’s what Apple does with iPhones. good example is Siri. Who cares whether the kernel is WinCE or WinNT as long as it supports the older apps that users bought from Marketplace. That should have put “Meh sayers” and internet asshole journalists on ZDNET, Engadget, CNET etc. shut their fuck up. I don’t know why Microsoft wanted to be honest in this case? who really cares what type of kernel that ding uses, I wonder except the naysayers of the windows phone.
Rama Uppugunduri: And one more thing, Google never tells anyone about what functionality would work on what device. It is up to device makers and members of XDA to decide :-). proud to be a member of XDA.
Murani Lewis: Seriously, lets not do the whole Android is where its at thing. Microsoft has made the correct and bold choice to position itself for the long term.
I love my Windows Phone and , like David, I value the ability and thoughtfulness the Windows Phone team has put into the platform. Microsoft has long money so you might want to buckle in.
Windows Phone 8 is just as big a leap as Mango was from WP7.5. By all accounts Microsoft has caught up with WP8 and in some ways surpassed iOS and Android.
Ramon Trotman: Dear bunny…. I have been asking this question for a year and some change…. Perhaps you could help me out as I see you are big on sales equal results.
What were the G1 first year numbers?
Doug Smith: SUH-to-the UCK-UCK-UCKED!
Albert Bunn: In the past it appears to have been pretty accurate. I recently researched 2004-2006 “smart device” market share, and I’d have to say they did a pretty good job of reflecting the popularity and sales of those platforms for those time periods. In your own words, The smartphone market didn’t start with the iPhone and won’t end with it.
Not trying to be harsh, I’m really just trying to bring this fact out a bit more.
Evan Powell: What are you avoiding being harsh about exactly?
Doug Smith: The T-Mobile G1 by HTC was rumored to have sold 1 million but HTC said they forecast 600,000 but that’s assuming T-Mobile sold that many.
Albert Bunn: Windows Mobile is now practically dead, mostly because Microsoft killed it.
>>>”But I’m not sure why Google is off the hook here. Most of their phones don’t get updated. Fuck, even Apple doesn’t update all of their older phones – they just have the sense to call it iOS6 even though on older devices it’s crippled.”
Updated with what? I update the software on my Epic all the time. If you use the Android Market “play land” thing, it’ll even notify you of updates. Not that a lot of it even needs updating as they work pretty well out of the starting gate.
>>>”After f$%&ing around with WM for all that time I’m glad to be done with it and happy to move on to a device that works out of the box and never needs a reboot.”
While it is limited in functionality to Windows Mobile 6 and earlier, it is true that the iPhone does not frequently need a reboot.
>>>”WP is fast as shit and solid.”
As any good feature phone or “simple app” OS should be.
>>>”The OS is way beyond Android in terms of stability and battery life”
As is my Nokia 1260.
>>>”something Android always promises to fix and always fails at”
Guess functionality comes at a price…
Albert Bunn: Interesting observation.
>>>”in some ways surpassed iOS and Android.”
In some ways, my Nokia 1260 and Palm m500 surpass my Samsung Epic, but I continue to use my Epic…
>>>”Its not for everyone but nothing is. To each his or her own.”
Absolutely. The buyers see and buy what’s good.
Ramon Trotman: So windows phone did better than android? Hmmmm….and it still has a better growth rate? Hmmmm….so why is everyone worried?
Albert Bunn: I know there was still a small team clinging to WinMo and I didn’t want to step on any toes is all.
Albert Bunn: No growth rate. Mobile 7 stalled and eventually conked out the Microsoft Mobile engines. They can try to restart it all they want by throwing more money into it, but the original iPhone has them too far beat already if you ask me.
Jim Szymanski: Actually the platform has doubled market share the past two quarters. May not be able to double again (to 8%) in Q3 but I am pretty sure they will make up for it in Q4.
Albert Bunn: I don’t see it happening, but time will tell I guess.
Evan Powell: Alright lets cut the shit here. Justifications shouldn’t acceptable for any OS. If WP doesn’t get a pass for you for what you deem to be easy tasks, Android as a much more complex OS should receive passes for missing the easier stuff too.
1. He’s clearly talking about system updates. Not app updates. There’s no reason why there are new devices released with 3 different versions of the OS. Some with no official immediate path of upgrading (here’s looking at you Galaxy Note).
2. Again, you choose to remove Android as a system from your response. There are quite a few of us here who use both OS’s heavily, if not daily (what up Ramon). Most of our usage concerns from from our actual use, not xda bitching…
3. Two ways to go here:
A) Android can’t keep up speed wise to simple OSs running far more underpowered hardware
B) that condescending tone toward WP is probably incorrect.
What really kills me is that the S3 has intelligent ways to jump to the top of a list of information (double tap the top bezel), but still studders going DOWN a list of information for the first time (email is a terrific example. Especially through Exchange).
4. Again the Galaxy Note is the best example to use here. 2.2 was supposed to be the first version of Android that properly used Hardware Accelerated graphics. That didn’t happen correctly so then that was pushed back to 2.3 and 3.1. That only happened for most Tegra devices so then it was supposed to be for ICS. Same song different tune. Project Butter is going to show itself on Jelly Bean, Key Lime Pie and more. Here’s hoping they finally get right in the 4th year.
Bottom line, every OS has its shortcomings and no one here that likes WP is going to deny that they exist (maybe some specific ones that spawn outta BS). The reason people seem to be excited about WP8 is specifically because MS made it a point to tackle damn near every shortcoming they had. I will gather that we won’t know the full story until the RTM but changing the core (which makes me happy because they BT stack will be upgrades), having system level VoIP integration, supporting sd cards, native code, direct x , multiple cores and 3.5 to 4.8″ screens with dpi’s over 304 is a big fucking deal. Feature to feature, there really won’t be much of a competitive advantage that any other OS will be able to offer (That includes coding. Objective C is terrible and the only reason most became comfortable with it is because of the installed base. I challenge anyone here to prove me wrong about that).
Nice writes, that’s pretty much how yesterday’s conversation went ☺.
Albert Bunn is a tool
Ah, but he’s a /useful/ tool. His blind bitterness does, admittedly, lead to a more balanced debate.
Check out the latest article I wrote, Nokia has sold more units in the first three quarters than Apple and Google have combined. 6.9 Million devices. I can’t wait to get a WP8 device and see that next level Microsoft jumps to in the mobile market. All I can say is the new UI on WP8 and the update coming for WP7.8 is easily the best.
Hmmm yet still all the major tech writers and sites do not share your guys blind love for Windows. Well I guess that’s why this site is still relevant, got to have some rooting for the underdog. Crack berry is still around too I suppose? Anyone here think they will rise from the ashes with bb10?
@Steve – Always nice to meet a fan.
@Anthoney – Despite what everyone else thinks, I think BlackBerry (and Microsoft for that matter) will hold steady where it’s at, neither gaining nor losing; it’ll always have its “niche” if you ask me.
Guess what, Microsoft just took a 6 Billion write off and didn’t sweat it. Microsoft has long money and a plan for Windows Phone 8 and nobody can deny the gigantic leap Windows Phone has made in the last two updates (WP7.5 and WP8).
Nokia sold twice the amount of Lumia Windows Phones this quarter than the previous one. That is positive momentum. It doesn’t matter if they were sold in the U.S. or Internationally.
Crackberry is full of insane fanboys. They support RIM and cite loyalty as if they were RIM employees.
Bottom line i’ll be purchasing a WP8 device this fall and continue making fun of my wife with her iPhone.
I view iPhone and Android as mature products–they’ve had lots of releases, and the latest ones add little.
The Metro UI is a new, first step, with lots of room for changes and improvement. Even in its infancy, it offers a lot.
The whole Windows ecosystem is taking a huge leap into the future. No one reasonably expects it to happen overnight, but Microsoft can’t afford to retreat, and shouldn’t. And they are planning for the long term, moving all their products in the Metro and Cloud direction.
I am currently running iOS6 on my iPhone 4S, 3rd gen iPad and an iPhone 3GS. It’s actually ridiculously fast on my iPhone 3GS until it comes time to use ‘new’ apps like the new podcasts app and others which have high resolution graphics embedded in them (I assume it’s a memory issue w/the 3GS).
Anyway, iOS6 is not a ‘small things added’ update. The overall USAGE of the device is the same, but the overall EXPERIENCE is far better than it was on iOS5. And on the iPad it adds Siri (which I personally use every single day).
As for the WP8 debacle, I was completely surprised that they made the choice to alienate the entire existing WP7 user base. It’s mind boggling. Can’t believe it. I feel bad for you staunch WP7 guys. You truly like your devices (as I do my iPhone/iPad) and you were looking forward to WP8, but now you have to upgrade again and its only been a year or two on the device you have (or less for you Nokia owners). It’s crazy.
WP7.5 should upgrade to 7.8, which is the same thing as saying WP8 minus the features the hardware won’t support, which isn’t any different than what Apple does.
And in reality, the real benefits for WP8 are a year out, when the NFC devices have more of a presense in the wild, and the WP8/Win8 Metro apps get more numerous.
I’ve used most of the phones from the earliest on, and my original Focus is by far the best of them all. I’m in no hurry to upgrade. I’ll wait and see whats offered. No one using WP7 should feel slighted–its still the best out there, and will be not be that much different in the short term than WP8.
The real benefit is when the Win8 ecosystem gains traction on all platforms, which will take years, but it will happen. ALL of Microsoft products have shifted to Metro, and actually are the best so far. Real improvements in speed and usability. And they expect it to take YEARS to really take hold. And it stays mostly compatible with the old way and offers an easy upgrade path.
I have some reservations about how you’re using ‘the best’ since not a single market trend is reflecting that claim. People don’t historically buy crap just to be buying it, and if Windows Phone were truly the best, it would be selling a helluva lot better.
Now, that being said, if by ‘the best’ you were referring to just all Microsoft products, I’d again have to disagree with you. Windows 7 is much better in my experience than Windows 8. I absolutely abhor metro on windows 8.