The Live Tile Debacle – And A Solution That Works!
This will be the final part of my continuing series on Live Tiles. While it’s hard to draw definitive conclusions based on limited testing and some anecdotal comments by a few readers, I think I can establish a fairly strong hypothesis from what I have learned. But be warned, this is a long post. So if your Live Tiles are working fine right now you should probably move on, but consider bookmarking this page. Because as with termites, there are only two kinds of WP7 users in this world. Those who have Live Tile problems and those who will have Live Tile problems.
First some guidelines. Through email conversations with several developers I have learned that there are two kinds of Live Tiles, pull and push. Pull tiles are similar (but not the same) as the Notification queue in Windows Mobile, where events would be triggered on a timed basis. For example a word of the day tile could be updated each day at midnight (Urban Dictionary), or maybe every hour (Weather Channel). Push tiles, or push notifications, are instant. When an app sends out a request for an update (Smart Tile) the Live Tile is instantly updated. Or if there is breaking news, or a Weather Alert (Weatherbug) boom, it’s there. Microsoft has stated that there is a 15 Live Tile limit, but we don’t know if that is for “push” only tiles/notifications or includes both “push” and “pull”. Microsoft has also claimed that deleting an app with “push” Live Tile support will open up a channel for another Live Tile. Well, they are half right with that statement.
As I can’t find any evidence that “pull” tiles get registered on a WP7 device (unlike “push” tiles which update two registry keys) I am fairly certain that the 15 tile limit only refers to “push”. Further evidence to support this theory is that when “push” tiles stop working on a device, “pull” tiles usually continue to function. So at the very least, they are handled separately by the OS.
Two days ago I developer unlocked (the legal way) my Surround, sideloaded TouchXperience Registry Editor, and did some poking around. I found the following registry keys that reader Rekfa posted about here:
HKLM\Software\Microsoft\PushClient\Endpoints
HKLM\Software\Microsoft\PushClient\ManagedEndpoints
On my device, Endpoints had 22 subkeys, none of which could be clearly identified by looking at them (a long number/letter string), while ManagedEndpoints had a single “blank” default subkey. Note that by this point, none of my “push” Live Tiles were working and I had previously uninstalled/reinstalled all of my Live Tile apps in an effort to figure things out, or maybe make room.
Yesterday, I decided to do a factory reset to get my Live Tiles working again. During the rebuild I installed two apps with Live Tile support and they updated instantly. Success! When I checked the registry keys, both Endpoints and ManagedEndpoints each had two entries. Good so far. Further, you can actually look at the ManagedEndpoints subkeys and uniquely identify them by app or developer name. That’s a good thing when trying to troubleshoot a problem. As a test, I disabled the two Live Tiles and then deleted both the Endpoints and ManagedEndpoints keys/subkeys. After a soft reset I reenabled the two Live Tiles and they started working again. Checked the registry and all the keys were recreated. I continued installing apps and rebuilding my device through the day, adding two more Live Tiles along the way, for a total of 4 tiles.
At the end of my rebuild I checked the registry and was surprised to see “6” subkeys, not the 4 I expected, in both Endpoints and ManagedEndpoints. Looking through the ManagedEndpoints subkeys, I found the two freeloaders, eBay and an unidentifiable “TileNotificationChannel”. As a side note, when I opened the eBay app the first time it asked if I wanted to enable “push” for bid/auction notifications, and I answered ‘no”. Checked the settings and those options were still unchecked. Still don’t know what app TileNotificationChannel relates to but I have a suspicion. From this discovery I can conclude that some apps will unknowingly register a “push” channel even though you have not turned the service on or pinned the tile to Start. As a note, tile channel registration does not happen until after you open an app the first time. With a hard “15” Live Tile limit, this is not a good thing, and cries of poor programming. Note that I have two other apps with Live Tile functionality that has never been enabled and they have not registered a push channel, so it is possible to do it correctly.
Last night, after opening and playing around with a bunch of apps but not activating any additional Live Tiles, I checked the registry again and found 10 Endpoints subkeys and 8 ManagedEndpoints subkeys. The culprits this time; moTweets which activates Live Tile support by default and Sports Calendar, which has an option for push notifications, but it’s not enabled. I disabled Live Tile support in moTweets, but even after soft resets I continue to have 8 ManagedEndpoints subkeys. And the >8 Endpoints subkeys was definitely puzzling. Don’t know how the extra 2 got there.
I uninstalled/reinstalled eBay a couple times to see if it would unregister the LiveTile push subkeys, as Microsoft suggests it should. While it removed the ManagedEndpoints key, the Endpoints key remained. In fact, each time I reinstalled eBay, the Endpoints subkey total increased by 1.
Through my testing I now have 8 ManagedEndpoints subkeys and 14 EndPoints subkeys, already more than halfway to the fateful 22 Endpoints subkeys, which appears to be the limit. Don’t know exactly how that relates to Microsoft’s 15. I had theorized that registry entries were cumulative, growing each time you installed/enabled a Live Tile app, even the same app repeatedly, and that appears to be the case. With the Endpoints key, once you reach 22 subkey entries, that’s it. The OS will not allow you to register any additional push tiles. Also in theory, any existing Live Tiles registered in ManagedEndpoints should continue to work, but if you uninstall/reinstall apps, as i did originally trying to solve my problems, the new installs/reinstalls won’t register. A damn vicious cycle.
Don’t know who is to blame for the Endpoints registry entries not being deleted when an app is uninstalled, but it is obviously an issue that needs to be addressed. Patrick Kortendick, another writer here at MD has a Focus with the same 22 Endpoints subkeys, and non-working Live Tiles. And we have gotten additional feedback from HD7 and VenuePro owners, so this is not a device specific issue. For me the solution is easy; simple deleted the keys with my Registry Editor and reinstall my preferred Live Tiles. But the Registry Editor appears to only work on HTC devices for now (a Samsung fix is in the works at XDA) and you also need the ability to sideload, so not as simple as it sounds.
Some Action Items
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Developers need to clearly state in their app descriptions whether they utilize “pull” or “push” Live Tile/Notification features. Actually this is something that Marketplace should do as a part of app submission.
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Developers need to “disable” Live Tile/push notification functions by default, making it a user controlled option, so a device does not reach the Live Tile limit unexpectedly. Some apps already work this way making it a doable and reasonable requirement.
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Microsoft needs to determine why the Endpoints subkeys do not delete, as the ManagedEndpoints subkeys do, when an app is uninstalled. If it’s developer error Microsoft should release a Bulletin ASAP and reign in the rouge apps and if an OS error, we all need a hotfix right quick. Hey they can even call it the JimskiHotfix, although I wouldn’t mind a credit on my account for the developer registration that made this all possible.
Oh, BTW I deleted two more (different) apps and reinstalled one to further test the Endpoints key constipation problem. Nothing came off as expected, so now I am up to 15 and counting. Not sure what happens when an app is updated through Marketplace. Isn’t that that same as another install? Hope you are reading Microsoft.
UPDATE: Can you deal with a little more Mad Science. This morning I checked my registry again and Endpoints had grown to 18 subkeys. Last time I checked there were 15 and I did not install/uninstall any other apps since then. I did get 3 updates from Marketplace (think the 3 is a mere coincidence) last night, but none of them were related to Live Tile apps. I activated the Live Tile for Pro Sports Scores, which BTW is one of the apps that plays nice and does not register keys until you activate the option, wondering if now that Endpoints had passed 15 I would have a problem. Live Tile activated without a problem but, of course now Endpoints = 19 subkeys. Enough already!
Deleted the two keys; Endpoints & ManagedEndpoints, exited the app and immediately soft reset my phone. Note that I did not uninstall or disable any Live Tile functionality. After reboot I checked the registry and both keys were still absent, exactly the way things looks after I factory reset the other day. Went back to each of my preferred Live Tile apps; Smart Tile, Sports Scores, Pro Sports Scores, Weatherbug, WP Messenger and Sports Calendar, toggled the Live Tile feature off and on, then went back to check the registry. Guess what, now I have 6 Endpoints and 6 ManagedEndpoints. So not only did I clear out the constipated subkeys, rouge apps like eBay, moTweets and, mystery app, did not reregister, taking up precious spaces/channels. So it works. Spread the word.
UPDATE 2: One of the dumbest things I have done in a long time was factory resetting my device “before” testing the fix presented in this article. While things are working for me now, and I have deleted the trouble keys multiple times without issue, I couldn’t be positively certain that it did not have something to do with the reset; clearing another key, emptying a cache, or something else. When I read a post over at wmpoweruser Saturday morning from an HD7 user that the fix did not work I got as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. Later I discovered that the HD7 user only deleted a few keys from the Endpoints key, which will not work, unless you are very, very lucky. But I still didn’t have any proof that my theory would work on a non-hard reset device.
Thankfully Tan Teng Heng, who has been following the Live Tile posts since the beginning, has proved me to be correct and even found a way to simplify things. You can read his detailed post below for more info but he basically deleted all the subkeys inside Endpoints, without touching the parent or ManagedEndpoints. Now all (except one) of his Live Tiles are working again. So an HD7 that was not factory reset, and had non-working Live Tiles, has working tiles again. Success, really! Deleting both keys, or just Endpoints, will not hurt anything (it recreates as soon as you activate a Live Tile), but Tan’s surgical approach might make some users a little more comfortable trying this.
On another front, Patrick Kortendick, still hindered by not being able to delete registry keys on his Focus has tried another approach. He went into the Endpoints subkeys and erased the entries under NotificationURI. Again, as these can’t be matched to a Live Tile, you need to erase all of them. He has had mixed results, with some Live Tiles coming back to life and others still refusing to join in. Not sure if this is an app problem or a result of the residue left behind (empty subkeys). No doubt deleting the subkeys remains the preferred approach. But it is progress.
DISCLAIMER: This article is in no way intended to discredit Windows Phone. Actually, I thoroughly enjoy my phone and the OS, although yesterday’s complete rebuild was not much fun. The fact that I purchased a WP developer’s license and have installed more than 150 apps on my phone, nearly half of them “paid apps” further supports my interest in the WP platform. Live Tiles are an integral part of the WP7 user experience. Attacking this problem head on and snuffing it out is the best way to ensure a positive experience for current and future users.
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GREAT article, Jim. Thanks for bringing this issue to more of an audience.
Damn. You read really fast. But then again, you already had the benefit of “cliff notes”.
Wow, I skipped most of the email reading. Good job with digging into this
Man jimski you are great. You did a great job in this research and especially documenting the whole process. Way to go.
I especially enjoyed the part where you go on and on in italics. Wish we did that with the whole site, amirite?
Or how about bold italicized strikethrough? No, too edgy, you’re right, stick with italics.Excellent analysis. Thanks for the work. Hope people at MS are seeing this.
Another great write up, Jim! Figuring out these Live Tile inner workings has been really enlightening.
-jim
No Springs Studios
Thanx for this…
I had access to the reg just fine, then after installing beezz, it kicked me out & said it was restricted (HD7). Now the reg folders are just not showing.
Anybody with any ideas how to “reset” or disable this restriction somehow?
Great post, Jimski. Microsoft should definitely refund your developer fees. How’s the registry editor? It sounds like WP7 could use a Total Commander.
I bet the ebay app was written in two days; I’m not surprised it’s a pile of crap.
I have 26 subkeys in Endpoints and 6 Managed Endpoints. Did you note down the subkey folder names of the Live Tile apps when you did your one by one installation? I’m thinking of risking it by deleting some of them if I know which is for which.
And thanks for the sharing. It’s great information and it’s bookmarked in my IE on my HD7.
Reg editor and File explorer are both very limiting. Yes, I do miss Total Commander. Found the key with alerts, numbered 0 to 10, so I tried to add an 11 & 12, but I couldn’t save changes. I have all the alerts from my Fuze/Tilt2 and sort of missing them. Then I tried to use Explorer to rename Alert 10 so I could replace it with my own, but of course it was read only and I couldn’t change it. It kept making copies of the original file. Damn.
Sent a detailed email to eBay support. The reply should be hilarious.
3 things.
1. Great series of posts. I have a around 90 apps now but the way that I organize them (something I call 4-by-2, i’ll explain it if people care) made me not even think about think that there was a live tile problem.
2. Simmons, once again, shut up. Maybe I should tell you to shut up like this then…
3. Last minor thing, I didn’t even know that there was an urban dictionary app! Zune Queued.
No way to define the Endpoints (at least not for me). But the ManagedEndpoints are pretty easy to figure out if you open them up and read the description. If you are having Live Tile update issues (I seem to remember you are) I would disable Live Tile support for those six apps, or delete them if there is no option to disable. Then delete both the Endpoints and ManagedEndpoints keys. Soft reset and reenable/reinstall your Live Tile apps. As noted, I am 99% sure this will work, but no guarantees. It worked when I deleted 2 subkeys. Should work as well for 26. This is exactly what I will be doing when my tiles get constipated again. Still at 15 Endpoints but curious to see what happens when apps are updated by Marketplace. Interesting that you have 26 Endpoints. Guess different devices/app combinations react differently.
Just to reiterate, and correct my last post, delete the entire Endpoints and ManagedEndpoints keys, with all the underlying subkeys attached. As soon as you load/enable a live tile, these keys will be recreated and populated. I already saw that happen twice. Don’t mess with trying to guess which Endpoints are associated with ManagedEndpoints. Whole process, including reenabling your tiles will take 5 minutes. Actually it would be great is someone could make an “app for that”, deleting the keys and soft resetting.Not sure if it would get Marketplace approval though.
So, it sounds like the endpoints just have a {guid} associated with them. Can you dump the registry to a file? I would do that, and then search the registry for the {guid}; you might find it in another place, with a key that identifies what tile the {guid} is associated with. Or, you could just search on the device with the registry editor’s built in search function.
Trust me FT, this reg editor is very limiting. Endpoints is loaded with keys that have the {4ag6} crap in them.The is a subkey labeled NotificationURI with something readable but when you open it the value is a String, so a bunch of gibberish. ManagedEndpoints key is actually named by the dev so you will see the app title, like WeatBug in the description. BTW, a dev has confirmed that they have no control of what is written or deleted from the registry. So this issue is in Microsoft’s court now.
Shit! Now I have “18” Endpoints subkeys. I know I had 15 yesterday and didn’t load any new apps or update anything with Live Tile support. ManagedEndpoints is still at 7-8 as a couple apps seem to turn on/of their tiles occasionally, especially WeatherBug. Guess I will be testing this sooner than I thought.
My Endpoints key grew up to 19 entries and got tired of waiting. The trick works. Check the UPDATE at the end of my post above.
Can you export/import keys with that reg editor? Maybe the thing to do is just export the keys you need into one file, then when the extraneous ones start appearing, delete the two keys and just re-import the ones you need. It would save time over re-opening the apps and registering the live tiles, I guess.
Really, though, WP7 needs mortscript in a bad way. This locked down crap is BS, especially when core functions are effed in teh goat ass.
Limited. You get “Open” and “Delete”, but it looks nice. Oh, you can also create a new key or new value. And I can edit/save most values. Now that I am tinkering a bit I am starting to appreciate utilities like SK Tools a whole bunch.
But honestly, minus me going back into the reg editor a half dozen times to check and see what was happening, the whole process of; deleting the keys, soft resetting, and toggling my 6 apps took less than 5 minutes. And you may only need to do this every month or two, so not that bad. And even slow Microsoft should have this figured out and resolved in a few months. If not, it could have a big impact on future app purchases when users leave negative reviews because of non-functioning live tile, which actually have nothing to do with the app.
BTW, the Endpoints entries ticked up to 7 from 6. Still don’t know what is doing that. Wish I could read them to understand where the extras are coming from.
Awesome work tracking this down. I’ve just reached the end of my live tiles as well and made the mistake of updating to NoDo. Now I can’t sideload a registry editor to fix things. I’m almost tempted to spend the $100 just to developer unlock it. That’s a small price to pay for not having to do a hard reset.
I just left a question about it on answers.microsoft.com, which seems to be the only way to get support for the phone. But judging by their non-response to the Office Hub’s SharePoint section not working outside the office, I doubt anyone in position to make a change reads it.
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/winphone/forum/wp7-wpfeatures/push-notification-service-no-longer-working/5ec4c32a-325d-e011-8dfc-68b599b31bf5
Damn, Jeff. I wish you would have tried it before upgrading to NoDo. I have seen one report where a user claimed this did not work but don’t have any details, so can’t verify. Wish I would have tried this “before” factory resetting, but too late for that now. So it is possible that there is something else at play, either on your device or on Microsoft’s servers that gets toggled during a factory reset.
What I do know is that deleting these keys will do no harm to your device. I have already done it three times since factory resetting and the phone is perfectly stable while my live tiles are all updating regularly. Just don’t know how to get my phone back to a pre-reset state to make sure this works.
Anyone out there with an HTC, dev unlocked phone, that is having a problem with their tiles, give this a try. It won’t make it any worse and it may just give you your tiles back. And if you are successful/unsuccessful, please report back. Inquiring minds want to know.
@jimski
Yes, was facing problem with Live Tiles that I highlighted in your earlier thread. I have a HD7, and weatherbug, currency tile, bring the wine, breed are amongst those that doesn’t work. I will try the registry deleting tomorrow morning and feedback my result. Just one request though, if you could share your list of live tiles apps, reason being that I am concerned that I might have some of these and yet don’t know about it, and they may be the ones that I will probably uninstall if I don’t use them. What I have that is not working is stated earlier, the rest listed here works, countdown days, weather duck, weather (blue one, forgotten the name), smart tile and HTC hub. From the list I have, I’m sure there are Live Tiles apps that I don’t know at all.
Just to clarify, you may have some Live Tiles that are still working, but any recently installed may not work because of a bottleneck with these registrey keys (I think). You can look at the subkeys in ManagedEndpoints and determine which Live Tiles are registered on your device. SmartTile for example is: NSSdongforgetchannel (for No Springs Software) and Weatherbug is WeaterhBugPush. Also I discovered today that some Live Tiles, Weatherbug expecially, will occasionally unregister for no reason. And then the tile will not reregister because of the bottleneck. So the tile will remain with the last weather image that it downloaded. This disconnecting may actually be the cause for all this nonsense.
I had some tiles that were working and some that either game me errors or wouldn’t update. When I uninstalled/installed the tiles that were working, they also stopped, again because of the bottleneck.
I current have seven “push” live tiles working perfectly on my phone; Weatherbug, Messenger, Sports Scores, Pro Sports Scores, moTweets, SmartTile and Sports Calendar. Note that there are other apps that use “pull” to update and they are not affected by these two registry keys. Those I know if include; WeatherChannel, WeatherDuck, Urban Dictionary and I believe Flixter.
Also note that SmartTile works with pull and push. With pull, you have to wait up to an hour for the tile to update. With push, it takes 3-4 seconds. Again, reviewing ManagedEndpoints will tell you which live tiles are currently registered on your device. You may find something that you don’t know about
I also have eBay and Notepad Plus, that both support live tiles, but I have the service disabled, so they are not in my registry.
Deleting these keys should not affect your phone. Deleted my keys three times with no ill effect. Yes, it may disable your working live tiles, but more likely it will get them all working again. But if you want to get by with only a couple live tiles working now I understand. And thanks for replying.
Hi Jim,
I have a FOCUS, but I cannot delete any of the subkeys within the two folders that you have mentioned saying it is unable to. Do you think a hard reset will do this? Flickr only works sometimes, it will stay on that photo for along period of time until I get back into the app then it’ll start updating again, and then get stuck after a period of time.
I have a couple other apps that the live tile doesn’t even work at all when I installed it, like Weatherbug and MyBudget.
Would you think I would have to do a hard reset? I don’t understand why I can’t even delete the registry files.
@Neoxphuse: The way that Samsung utilizes their DLL files for registry access, a special registry editor has to be created to work with a Samsung device and enable write access (and deletion) on things like directories.
With that, I’m currently working with someone from XDA on a solution, and expect to have an alpha release of a new registry editor in my hands within the next few days. You’ll see news here in the comments or on the main site when that happens, as I’m having the same issue as you, and have a Focus.
@Neoxphuse: As Patrick stated, you have a few more days before you can try this. A hard reset will definitely clear up your troubles but I would hold out for the Registry Editor if I could.
In the meantime you can go into the registry and read the subkeys in ManagedEndpoints. Those ‘push” live tiles should currently be working for you. If an app is not registerd in this key, then the “push” live tile won’t work. Note though, that some apps like WeatherChannel and Urban Dictionary use the pull method for updating tiles, so they don’t hit this registry key. I know that Weatherbog is definitely “push” but I don’t use MyBudget or Flickr so can’t tell you how they are supposed to work.
@jimski
Thanks for your hard work, I’ve got weatherbug and currency tile working with the rest of my working tiles. Here’s what I did:
1. Deleted all entries in Endpoints. Soft reset.
2. Ran Weather channel. (Managed Endpoints showed HTC_Weather, Tile Notification Channel, Default). If I remembered correctly, had two Endpoints.
3. Ran Currency Tile (Managed Endpoints added STIM for currency tile). 3 Endpoints.
4. Ran WeatherBug (Managed Endpoints added WeatherBugPush). 4 Endpoints.
5. Ran Notesly Free (Managed Endpoints added Noteslychannel). 5 Endpoints.
6. Ran Smart tile (Managed Endpoints added NSSdontforgetchannel). 6 Endpoints.
7. Ran Bring the wine (Managed Endpoints added BringTheWine). 7 Endpoints.
So in total, 8 Managed Endpoints and 8 Endpoints (1 added in when, I don’t know).
Still not working, Bring The Wine not “Incomplete Task Counts). I noticed an entry on Notesly Free but don’t understand why an entry was inside as the app doesn’t seem to be an Live Tile app. I’m going to email the developer to find out.
Thanks.
Thank you so much for giving it a try and proving it out. So maybe you only need to delete Endpoints keys. Makes sense. BTW, TileNotificationChannel should be Smart Shopping, or at least it is on my phone. Or it may be a generic reference. I contacted that dev and he is going to change his code so that the app does not write to the registry unless a user activates the live tile function.
Actually I have Notesy Free as being “push” live tile app. Think it’s noted in their app description. Tested it a month ago but no longer using it. If the app is listed in ManagedEnpoints it should work, so if there is a problem there is a good chance it is at the developer’s end or a server issue.
Don’t worry when you see your Endpoints count grow over time. Beginning to believe that is the root issue, some apps, like Weatherbug, reregistering occasionally and adding another key. All your existing live tiles will continue to work but eventually a new install may not. If so, just repeat the process. I can tell you that his has gotten Microsoft’s attention. Hopefully they can correct this issue quickly.
Thanks again for giving it a go. Now there is no doubt that you can get live tiles back without a hard reset. That’s a relief.
While looking at HKLM\Software\Microsoft\PushClient\Endpoints, my phone seems to have 23 subkeys. I really hope a RegistryEditor for the Samsung Focus is created soon. I really want to fix my Live Tiles issue.
Obviously, this is a workaround that no average user should have to do. Has anyone reached out to Microsoft about this issue, other than the posting on Microsoft’s Social Answers site? Can someone in the “Media” please find out from MIcrosoft how to elevate this issues and for them to provide fixes?!?!
@Chris Lynch: I hear ya. Can’t say much but my understanding is that this has gotten Microsoft’s attention. Don’t know how they will react but as Live Tiles are a primary feature of the OS, I hope it will be swiftly.
A workable Reg Editor is expected for the Focus any day now. I agree that this is certainly not something the average user can deal with and a more permanent solution is needed. As more apps add Live Tile support and more users download apps, this relatively rare issue is sure to turn into an epidemic. We will keep you posted.
It will be interesting to see Microsoft’s response to this issue. Especially as I have now updated to NoDo on my Venue Pro. Even after the update there are only three live tiles currently functioning! There is also no way of easily unlocking it, let alone browsing and modifing the registry. Hard reset sounds like my only option and even that may be temporary.
@RASTX: I agree. They certainly won’t dev unlock everyone’s phone or give them Admin rights to the registry. But if they can’t immediately correct this problem they should use the resources they have available to them, and create an app that will purge the Endpoints registry key and soft reset your phone. It won’t hurt anything and will get your Live Tiles up and running instantly, until the next time.
Once they come up with a more permanent solution or possibly get the offending devs to change their code (one possible theory), they can simple pull the app from the Marketplace and your phone. Problem solved. Microsoft could have that app available by the morning. That’s what I call thinking out of the box.
Isn’t there a way to write an app to purge the reg keys?
Not sure if MS would let this go through market, but I’d pay a couple of bucks to have this app and be able to do this.
Pretty sad that uninstalling an app doesn’t remove the reg keys for it.
Just hard reset after nodo update didn’t fix this. Wonder what I’m up to in that registry setting. Ebay is preinstalled on the hd7 (uninstalled), have motweets, weatherbug (uninstalled), weather channel.
I’ll contact motweets and see if in the next update, if they will make push notifications off by default and explain why. They are very reasonable.
So have you figured out if updating an app takes another spot? Might be worth not updating some apps.
I agree on the app idea but think MS should provide it till they come up with a long term fix. A hard reset should have have deleted/reset all your keys so maybe something else is at play. Yes, apps that auto-enable live tiles should should be changed. moTweets, eBay & Flixter are all guilty. But Flixter is the only app I have found that consistently removes keys by simply disabling live tile support. No app delete or soft reset required. Most likely, all live tile apps are supposed to work like this.
Have not seen a live tile app get updated recently but I am thinking that is probably not a problem. What is a problem is several apps; Weatherbug, Messenger, moTweets, SportsScores and Pro Sports, seem to occasionally disconnect removing one subkey. When you open the app it reactivates live tile but adds two new subkeys, one in each parent key. Not good.
WeatherChannel uses pull so not affected by the registry. Weatherbug uses push because of the Toast weather alerts.
@jimski It’s been 10 days since I last posted about my adventures with Live Tiles on my HD7. I had done a complete delete of all the MEP and EP, and painstakingly written down each MEP and EP that each of my Live Tile created. This exercise has been helpful for me, I now know that MEP if created by any Live Tile app, will remain the same even if you reinstall the app. EP on the other hand, is different after each reinstall. I also noticed that sometimes out of the blue, an EP pops up even though you didn’t reinstall a Live Tile app. Now, with the records I kept, when one of this Live Tile starts acting strange, I go into my registries and compare with what I have. Just last night, my currency tile was not updating and I went in to see the MEP and EP entry for it. The MEP entry was missing. Even I started the app and triggered the Live Tile update, the MEP remained missing. What I did was to delete the EP entry for currency tile, and also deleted the other EPs that were not in my record. I reinstalled currency tile and confirmed the same MEP entry appeared and a new EP was added (I updated my records). I monitored to make sure all my Live Tile apps are working and after almost 12 hours, I can confirm that they are all working. I now have 10 EP and 6 MEP in my registry. I have 11 Live Tile apps (1 is not pinned to Start, the other “notesly free” is pinned but it only runs when there is an update to the app), so basically all the 9 is working fine.
@TanTengHeng: Great research! Yes I discovered that the MEP keys never change. I recorded the first three characters for each key and identified which tile they are associated with. Now I don’t have to bother opening each to find out which tile they represent. And I suspected that the EP keys changed but never bothered to try and identify each. Inside each of the EP keys is a Subscription ID and that number seems to keep growing for me. Before I hard reset those ID’s were numbered 1 thru 22 to match the 22 EP keys that were plugging up my live tiles. So obviously even by deleting/reinstalling apps, none of these keys were ever removed. Now after deleting the EP parent key several times, the Subscription ID’s are numbered 89, 93, 97, 98, 86, etc., so it looks like each time a new EP key is created it comes with a unique identifier.
One key inside the Push Client parent I find interesting is State. A subkey labeled Available is currently set to 1. I am curious to see if that will change to 0 once my EP count goes over 15 keys. I am currently at 9MEP and 11EP. Guesing that once you have reached some kind of limit this will change state, preventing any new live tiles to register.
As you discovered the problem here has to do with the EP keys. Basically the MEP keys are working as expected. There are a few issues that cause EP keys to accumulate, eventually disabling any newly activated live tiles
-When an app is uninstalled the associated EP key should be removed along with the MEP key, which always dissapears. In a few instances I thought I saw both keys being deleted, but only when I had 2 or 3 of each key (a matching pair) but have not been able to recreate that situation. The only app I have found that repeatedly removed both the EP and MEP keys when uninstalled is Flixter. In fact, when the Flixter live tile is disabled, the EP key is removed and the MEP key is emptied (left with a bland default key). When Flister live tile is reactivated the MEP key is repopulated and the EP key is recreated. I believe this is the proper way that Live Tile apps are supposed to operate. And that mush have something to do with the way an app is coded.
-Several apps occasionally disconnect, as you discovered with your Currency app. Twice this week WeatherBug has stopped updating. I checked the registry and the MEP key was missing. After opening the app and refreshing, the tile updated. I noticed that the MEP key was restored, but an additional EP key was also added. This happened again today, and I had to toggle live tile – push notification twice to get things working. But this time only the MEP key was restored, no new EP key. But I have seen other apps, Sports Scores and Pro Sports disconnect, removing their MEP key but not the EP key. And after toggling live tile off/on, both an MEP and EP key will be added. I believe this is the primary cause of an accumulation of EP keys.
-Many apps install with live tile support enabled. So as soon as you open the app the first time the MEP / EP keys are registered even if your never pin the tile or even know that live tile support exists. And uninstalling the app will not delete the EP key. Some apps even register the keys with live tile support initially turned off. I discoverd this on one of my installed apps and the dev didn’t know it till I alerted him. An update is on the way from him to fix this issue.
So even if a user only has a few live tiles installed, over time this disconnecting/reconnecting will cause an accumulation of EP keys, disabling a live tile that they may have had installed for months. The normal reaction would be to start deleting existing live tile apps and then reinstalling, also rendering them unresponsive as the limit has already accumulated.
Most likely this is a developer issue and could be corrected over time if Microsoft would test the code for this and convey the proper method for implementing live tiles. But doing so will not fix everyones plugged up registry. I know Microsoft will talk about Live Tiles at MIX on Thursday and I am sure they will have some nifty stuff to report but we probably will not see those changes/improvements till at least Q4-2011. That’s a long time to wait for live tiles which are an integral part of the OS. Unless Microsoft can get every dev to fix their live tile app ASAP, get the updated apps pushed out and then ZAP the EP key with an OTA update (all very unlikely) I believe, sadly, that this issue will be with us till at least the end of the year.
You, I and a handful of others have a way to keep live tiles working, but the masses are going to be dissapointed with non-working live tiles.
@jimski I have now unlocked my Venue Pro so I can at least browse the registry. I cannot make any changes as current registry editors are read only on the Venue Pro. The endpoints key on my device is up to 25 total entries, managed endpoints only has two. These correspond to the only two push tiles currently working. It seems the EP key is “saturated” at 25 since uninstalling and reinstalling applications has no effect on the current entries. Also, no new entries are made to the ME key with new application installations. As a result I am left with only two functional push tiles and no way to correct the problem. This I think verifies the EP key as the source of the problem. By the way in the “State” key you mention, the “Available” key is still set to “1”. So this does not seem to have any effect on live tile functionality.
@RASTX: Thanks for that feedback. What you describe is exactly what I experienced. I currently have 9 live tiles (MEP keys), all working, and 11 EP’s. I am going to wait till I get to the magic 15 EP’s and then try to add a new live tile to see what happens. I expect an EP will be added, but not an MEP, rendering the live tile inoperable.
Too bad on that ‘Available” key. Thought I might have been on to something. Oh well.
Is anyone at XDA-Developers actively working on a registry read/write solution for the VenuePro? Patrick Kortendick had some limited success on his Focus, erasing the contents (backspacing over) of Endpoints/XXX/NotificationURI. Not sure, but you might be able to do this with the registry editor’s limited capabilities. Of course, not knowing which EP keys are associated with your working live tiles, you risk the possibility of disabling those, but I have already deleted all my EP keys several times without affecting the functionality of the live tiles. Unless you are very, very lucky, selective delete would not work. So you would need to clear all 25 in order to add a new live tile app.
If you don’t mind, which two live tiles are working? I am trying to compile a list of live tiles that play well. As these two are still working I assume they are not plagued by the disconnecting/reconnecting glitch I have experienced, which usually adds (or tries to)another EP key, WeatherBug has done this on my device several times over the past two weeks.
@jimski I cannot modify the entries in the NotificationURI field as this still requires write access to the registry. So this is not option either. There have been attempts at XDA to gain write access to the registry on the Venue Pro, but they are limited by lack of com DLLs, something I don’t understand and know nothing about. The native registry reader in the field test mode is extremely limited and also read only. For now it seems the only solution is a hard reset. However this may only be a temporary fix unless one is careful about which applications are installed. Hopefully Mango will fix this as live tiles and push notifications are being updated. Of course if it does, it wont be until closer to the Fall/Holidays. On a side note, I also have an HD7 I have “fixed” a couple of times by deleting my endpoint entries and it works like a charm. I just prefer the Venue Pro form factor.
To answer your question, my current functional live tiles are My Stocks and TVShow. As you have mentioned previously pull tiles are unaffected by this and it is the only way I can get my Smart Tile to work. Thanks for all your help in providing this information. Glad to know I’m not the only one struggling with this.
@RASTX: Well glad it worked for you on at least one device. Who knows, maybe someone at XDA will have a breakthrough. They only got Samsungs read/write a week or so ago.
Mango may provide some sort of solution but that’s a long way off and it would mean every live tile app would need to be reworked, which may be necessary anyway to work properly. It might also mean an inevitable hard reset, but as you note preferably with live tiles that play well together. But you may need that for Mango anyway. I know a reset wouldn’t stop me from updating.
Investigating the idea of a Homebrew app that could empty the EP key for you. Not sure if there would be the same obstacles regarding read/write access to the registry for certain devices but its worth looking into. Not a permanent solution but a short term workaround. Microsoft simply needs to add “reset live tiles” as an option in settings to purge this key, just like “reset device” but much less painful. How hard could that possibly be.
Thanks for the app info. Guess it’s time to start a new list in OneNote.
@jimski Homebrew app would be great! Until then I hold my breath for write access to the registry from XDA. Thanks.
Fascinating discussion. I just hard reset in order to get my phone to developer unlock (wasn’t working before). Anyway, after reinstalling all of my apps I noticed that I have 6 EP and 7 MEP (one of which is empty). It turns out the subkey MEP\[gibberish]\[app name]\Cookie has as its value one of the keys seen in EP! Presumably this means that the EP key is tied to the MEP in this way. On a fresh install I essentially have a 1:1 correlation of MEP keys to EP keys (minus the blank MEP key). I wonder how, over time, this will change, as it seems that for many people the number EP keys increases for some reason.
Sorry, should note I’m on an HTC Arrive aka 7 Pro on Sprint in the U.S.
Hi, I think I have a problem with my live tile. I realize that it is not showing me the latest facebook event in my wp7 calendar in the homescreen live tile. However, when I go into the calender, it is right there inside. It just doesnt show up in the live tile. Anybody has the same issue or a fix to this?